It seemed like a simple, yes-or-no question: Had Jeff Garlin been fired from the ABC comedy The Goldbergs? ABC declined to comment when I began looking into that rumor a few weeks ago. After a good deal of back and forth with Sony Pictures Television, the studio that makes the long-running family comedy, a spokesperson there would only say, “The well-being of our cast and crew is of utmost importance to us. This is an employment matter and it is being addressed by HR and production.” I also repeatedly contacted Garlin’s PR person—who did not comment.
Finally, Garlin himself emailed me, and we ended up talking for over an hour the day before Thanksgiving. The conversation was intense, but it was also a relief—and extremely rare—to be working on a complicated story and have the subject of that story answer any and all questions I had.
According to three former Goldbergs employees I talked to, Garlin—who plays the gruff but loving dad on the sitcom—allegedly engaged in a pattern of verbal and physical conduct on set that made people uncomfortable. (One of the sources said that those behaviors did not make them uncomfortable personally, but that they were aware that others found it demeaning or unprofessional.) In addition to using language some found inappropriate, sources said Garlin would touch or hug people whether or not they were comfortable with that contact. As one source said, “He got away with it because he would call himself out for it—saying he was a big teddy bear, saying things like, ‘Oh you know me, just a big bowl of mush, I’m a hugger. I just love you.’”
Asked if the overall culture at The Goldbergs was difficult or demeaning, especially for women—and sources alleged to Vanity Fair that Garlin’s behavior contributed to that atmosphere—Sony would not comment beyond the statement above.
Whatever happens with Garlin—and he told me that he didn’t expect The Goldbergs to last beyond its current season, in any case—he will stay busy. He’s an actor and executive producer on HBO’s Curb Your Enthusiasm, which recently began its 11th season. (Asked if it had heard of any Goldbergs matter involving Garlin and whether it affected his status on Curb, HBO declined to comment.) Garlin is also in Damien Chazelle’s upcoming film, Babylon, with Margot Robbie and Brad Pitt. A Chicago native, Garlin has worked for nearly four decades as a standup, and his current tour, Use Me, is intended to aid comedy clubs affected by the pandemic.
In the conversation below, which has been edited and condensed, Garlin talked about accountability, change in Hollywood, and alterations that he will—and won’t—make in his own conduct going forward.
Were you fired from The Goldbergs?
No, I was not fired from The Goldbergs. I have not been fired from The Goldbergs.
I heard that there was an incident on set with you and a stand-in that was both physical and verbal.
I’m sorry for laughing. There was no… Nothing physical by any stretch of the imagination. And the verbal part was a joke that was completely missed—because I like this guy. I like his wife. I’ve worked with them for years. How I suddenly wake up one day and I don’t like them—I don’t get that. I will say the joke was missed and I apologize to him. If someone misses a joke, that’s unfortunate to me. I don’t like it.
Can you tell me what the joke was?
No, you would have to see me do it. But when I say it was completely silly, it was—and it was misconstrued, but there was nothing physical.
I’ve been trying to find out from Sony, ABC, and from various other people what happened.
Well, to be honest with you, there is no story. And I’m saying that in all sincerity, because that’s the thing that has me confused. Even with Sony—we have a difference of opinion, Sony and myself. Okay. My opinion is, I have my process about how I’m funny, in terms of the scene and what I have to do. They feel that it makes for a quote “unsafe” workspace. Now, mind you, my silliness making an unsafe workspace—I don’t understand how that is. And I’m on a comedy show. I am always a kind and thoughtful person. I make mistakes, sure. But my comedy is about easing people’s pain. Why would I ever want to cause pain in anybody for a laugh? That’s bullying. That’s just uncalled for.
There’s a lot to unpack there. Was there recently an HR investigation of you because of what happened with the stand-in?
Okay. There has been an HR investigation on me the past three years. HR has come to me three years in a row for my behavior on set.
What do they bring to you?
I’m not going to go over it because I don’t want to, but basically a lot of things that I disagree with—that are silly. If I said something silly and offensive, and I’m working at an insurance company, I think it’s a different situation. If I, as the star of the show, demanded a gun range and on set, and I was firing guns every day and I was a little bit loose—to me, that’s an unsafe work atmosphere. If I threatened people, that’s an unsafe work atmosphere. None of that goes on ever with me. That’s not who I am. I am sorry to tell you that there really is no big story. Unless you want to do a story about political correctness.
I’ve talked to multiple people who have worked on The Goldbergs who said that they felt demeaned and disrespected multiple times by language you used on set, and by some of your physical actions.
I gotta be honest with you. I don’t even know how to respond to that, because as a comedian, if somebody is offended by what I say I, all I can say is, I’m sorry. Okay? I have never physically come at anyone, for any reason, so that I find terribly confusing and untrue. Look, I’ve discussed this with the main crew. The camera department, the sound department, the lighting department, and all of these people who worked on my own movie—I did a movie for Netflix called Handsome—never have any problems. There was nothing. So whoever it is that feels this way has it out for me. That’s my true belief. I would never physically put myself to someone. And I would never hatefully say something to anyone.
I have talked to people who said that you touched them and you hugged them and they don’t want that contact from you. And you are putting the onus on them to speak up?
Again, I gotta be honest with you. I am a person who hugs for sure. And it’s quick hugs, but I didn’t realize that anyone was feeling—so if you want to write that story, that’s a true story. It puts the onus on them to say something, and I would gladly respect anyone who said, “Please don’t hug me. I don’t feel comfortable.”
Do you understand that you have the power, because you’re the star and they have no power?
By the way, I just said yes. Yes. I completely agree with you.
That’s why they go to HR, because they feel like they can’t…
Well, why wouldn’t they go to their department head? But here’s the thing I want to point out to you. I don’t want to make anyone feel bad. So I agree with that. If I hug someone, and they feel uncomfortable from it, they have every right to even go to HR. But HR has never said a word to me about hugs. Just so we’re clear on that.
I’ve done a lot of stories about the industry—about people who feel powerless and who feel like they’re not in a professional and appropriate workplace. And so…
By the way, I agree with that—having been in this business for 39 years, I’ve seen a lot of it. I’m direct. Before HR is called in, I say, “That won’t do here. You cannot treat people that way. You cannot do that.” So I do understand your whole premise on the hugging. I was completely unaware. And so I agree with you. If I’m making somebody feel bad because of that and feel uncomfortable, that is wrong.
There appears to be a pattern of you saying things on set that make people feel uncomfortable and demeaned.
Okay. So let’s talk about that for a second. Okay. Now, as a comedian and an irreverent one—you know, by the way, for your research, please watch my stand-up special on Netflix, because that’s who I am as a man. And I don’t go dirty. So if someone is upset that I say something nonsensical that has dirty words in it, I apologize.… By the way, HR could come to me and go, “Here’s the reason why they don’t want you to say this or talk this way.” I could understand it more, but I don’t buy into the blanket “we all have to be the same,” you know?
Jeff, that’s somebody’s workplace.
I understand that.
It doesn’t matter if it’s an insurance office or a pizza parlor or a television set or a film set. That is someone’s workplace.
I actually agree with you, but you clearly have an agenda, which I’m seeing from the way you talk. Okay. So your agenda—it’s just that we think differently. That’s all. So if you want to go to town on me in an article, because I say inappropriate, silly things on set, I actually admit to doing that.
My agenda is to ask some questions of you. You said that the last three years, including this year, HR came to you.
It’s always the same thing. It’s about me and my silliness on set. They don’t think it’s appropriate. I do. That’s where we’re at. I’ve not been fired because of it. We just think differently. Now when I’m at Curb Your Enthusiasm, for example, if I’m not doing the things that we’re talking about, Larry David—or a cameraman, the producer, who’s a woman—lots of people come up to me and ask me if I’m okay. I need to do what I need to do to keep my energy up and do what I do. So I don’t know what to say. To me, if you’re a stand-in on a show and you don’t like the content or the behavior… If someone’s going after you, that’s different. But in terms of in general—well, then by God, quit, go someplace else.
Just to be clear, the stand-in has never communicated with me.
Well, okay. But I’m just saying there was a joke that I did to the stand-in. The point is, I don’t know who you’re speaking to. It’s all mysterious. HR is mysterious. I’m not a person who gets back at anybody. In my world, I wish that someone would have either gone to the producers of the show, or just come to me, and go, “I’m not comfortable with you hugging me.” And I would have respected the fuck out of that. I’m respectful of what anyone wants to be called. I am respectful of people, but you gotta step up. And I’m not respectful of generalizations of me offending someone. … I look at my job as—now, I get other things out of it, don’t get me wrong—but my job is to ease people’s pain. That’s truly my job. And the idea that I would bring anybody pain makes me terribly sad, terribly sad.
I am truly trying to understand something here, and I want to get a question out. It might be a slightly long question, and I’ll tell you when I’m done with my question.
You got it. I’m just going to sit and listen.
The power dynamics in Hollywood are very skewed. So people—a little bit more now than they used to—will go to an HR, or some channel like that, to say, “I feel demeaned. I feel this is inappropriate. This is not something I’m comfortable with.” What I’m trying to understand is that people have repeatedly gone to HR—or have indicated to me they don’t feel respected—but when HR comes to you, you say, “I’m going to say what I say and do what I do on set, in terms of my language.” Yet to me you’re saying, “But I respect everyone.” Those two things don’t quite add up for me.
They most certainly do.
Not done yet. The people are going to HR because they do not feel that they are getting respect. So how do you square that with telling me that you respect people, when people are going through these channels because they don’t feel respect?
Okay. Well, here’s the thing. When I say I respect people, it’s like, “Let me know what you want to be called. Let me know what your boundaries are.” And I will [honor them]. I don’t do general boundaries, except for common decency. Other than that, I don’t. I’m a comedian and I’m sorry, but boundaries are meant to be broken. That being said, if it’s really a personal situation, it needs to be taken care of, I agree with that.
They don’t see it as silly, Jeff. They see it as sexist.
Okay. Well, by the way, let’s jump on that. I am a man who has immense respect for women. I have very close women friends. … I respect, excuse my language, the fuck out of women, and women deserve respect. And I have seen over the years in Hollywood, women being disrespected. But I don’t walk up to a woman and make a comment about their body. I don’t walk up to them and say, “Oh, you’re so beautiful today.” I don’t walk up to them and say, “Boy, if I was younger.” Those are all creepy, inappropriate things. … I love the term “woke.” I think woke is good. I think enlightened is good. I’m all good with all of it. And I do agree—there’s a power dynamic at work in Hollywood, but there’s also… you’re a stand-in, I’ve worked my ass off to be the star of the show. So you have every right to not be treated poorly, but you don’t have every right to dictate my behavior, if it has nothing to do with you based on what it feels [like]. That’s just my opinion. And that’s what I’m doing here.
Are you trying to exit The Goldbergs now?
No, I’m not trying to do anything. We’re trying to come to a place where we come to an agreement. Either I can behave the way [they want] or not. We’ll see, but I’m not being fired and I’ve not been fired. We’re in the middle of talking about what we’re going to do, but there will not be a firing. I will work more on The Goldbergs, just to let you know, I’m in contact with Sony. I will be shooting more days on the show. When I do shoot more days, just to make it go smooth, I will not be doing any of my silly stuff or anything, out of respect. I’m just going to keep it on the QT, because you know why? They’re my bosses. And they have every right to have the set be the way they want.
I understand. I think a lot of times where the difference falls is, who determines what is silly and what is serious?
I completely concur with you. It is a big bowl of “who determines?” It’s definitely gray, but we have to see it from the big picture, in terms of, that’s how I’m funny on camera. I’ve only had a negative experience with my behavior on The Goldbergs. I’ve never had it before or since—I’ve worked for Disney, I’ve worked for every studio in town.
If I have a unified theory of Hollywood, it’s that very few people have real power. And the people with the real power often misuse and abuse their power to punish anyone that speaks up at any point about anything.
By the way, I am obsessed with blacklisting and have been from the days of the blacklist, and everything you just said, I agree with that.
And the people I’m often speaking to are the younger people, the people coming up in the industry. I have talked to people where someone in a position like yours has done everything they can to destroy their mental health and their career.
If someone’s done this, they need to be outed and they need to be told, get the fuck outta here. ‘Cause it’s wildly inappropriate.
But they aren’t. They often get protected.
Well, look, for me personally, where I’m at in my career, that’s where I was amused that Vanity Fair would be interested. I have some level of power. I’m successful. But outside of that, I’m not a power broker in this town. I’m not one of the people with the power. Yes, I have a degree of power on The Goldbergs, but if I had more power, I’d make it a different show. I’d make it more like Curb Your Enthusiasm.
Multiple people have told me that the overall culture at The Goldbergs has been one where it was fairly common for people—especially women—to feel disrespected and demeaned. And those people told me that you contributed to that. And I just wanted to give you a chance to address that.
Okay. So I want to address it. I like that. So, from my point of view, I never saw a director, a producer, anyone with any power whatsoever, be disrespectful to a woman. If I ever saw that, I would take that person aside and go, “What you just did is wildly inappropriate.” And whoever’s feeling this way, I’m not going to deny their feelings. But from my perspective, I’ve not seen it. As a matter of fact, I’ll go on record and say, my experience on The Goldbergs has been mostly lovely, that it’s the most wonderful set to be on, and everyone gets along great. And everyone treats each other with respect and kindness. So for me, I never saw any of that. Now, I’m a middle-aged white man, which is not a popular thing right now. So maybe this was going on and it was my ignorance that I didn’t see it.
I have a question that you might not like. Multiple people have told me that you sent a text to a Goldbergs colleague, in which you said they should come to the next table-read not wearing a lot of clothes.
First off, I never wrote those words, and I don’t remember, but I might’ve said—
I’m summarizing what it said.
But it has nothing to do with someone being a woman. And it was not to do with being sexual. It had to have been probably just like, “Wouldn’t that be shocking.” It had nothing to do with that.
How do you think someone would feel getting a text like that?
Well, so, if someone received a text like that, and they didn’t understand the context in which it was said, they could easily go, “What the fuck!” I get that. But know that I didn’t write those words. And I’d like to see the text and who I sent it to. But everything that I write like that is about joking. I am respectful of women and women’s bodies. And I don’t make jokes about that, because I don’t find it funny.
So you never sent a text to a Goldbergs colleague saying that they should go to the next table-read wearing only panties.
To my knowledge, no. But if I wrote something like that, it had to do with something that was going on, and it wasn’t anything sexual. Yeah, there’s no way. I’m talking 100% no way, because I don’t talk that way. I don’t. Now, have I said stuff like that joking? You bet. But not joking where the underlying thing was something sexual. It would have been silly.
How is someone supposed to know what that underlying context is supposed to be? I can’t think of many contexts where that is—
By the way, I don’t know. You’re not telling me who I sent it to. You’re not telling me the circumstances in which it was sent. But I’m telling you that I don’t talk that way. That’s all, I’m just telling you. That’s not in my M.O. Really. It’s not.
OK. When HR or someone else has brought a concern to you—do you think that you have changed based on any conversation like that?
Most definitely. I had a talk with a woman at the end of last year because I had some problems COVID-wise with what was going on on the set. And I got angry, not at any individual, but in general. And I went home and we talked about how I could handle that better, amongst other things. And by the way, every time HR has said something to me, they’re not direct about specifics. There’s nothing specific. It’s general. So until I deal with specifics—a specific person, a specific moment—I can’t address it. It’s all hearsay.
I’ve worked at lots of different jobs, and no matter where I worked—even if they did it jokingly, even if they did it without a sense of malice—if someone was constantly referencing female body parts, it would give me a negative feeling, especially if it was person who was more powerful. And I felt like I was risking something by talking to anyone about it.
So when we say body parts, I’m going to go on record [with] this: the only word that I use, in terms of consistently, is when I stand up, I sometimes say—most of the time and I have for a hundred years, that doesn’t make it OK—I would go, “Oh, my vagina.” And that’s just me being,, in my eyes, silly. How that could make for an unsafe workplace, where if someone has a real vagina problem or someone says, “I have cervical cancer” or something, I’m not going to mention that anymore. I’m not going to do anything. But a generalization that someone is offended at me saying, “Oh my vagina,” when I stand up, I need more than that. That’s what I’m saying.
If anyone is using language and talking to me or talking to customers or talking to people in a way that I think is disrespectful—I would be taking a risk to report that even if I worked at Jiffy Lube. But if I’m working on the set of a TV show, the risk is incalculable, because my career could be over.
I am not disputing what you’re saying. But I’m saying if someone is offended indirectly by what I’m saying, and they don’t think it’s funny, my response is “Get over it.” [But] if I’m saying something that you find hurtful and mean-spirited and aimed toward you, it better stop—whatever behavior I’m doing.
You know, putting the onus on other people—
By the way, what you’re saying about Hollywood is really on a case-by-case basis. Most sets that I’m on, I find everyone or everything is respected. And that includes movies where I’m not the lead, I’m the 10th person on the list. I’m easily replaceable. Have I seen terrible behavior? You bet I have. Have I spoken up? Always, because I’m not for people being quiet about it. And with my quote, “position of power,” I won’t wait to go to HR. I will in fact talk about it then and there with the person.
I hear you. I often speak to people who are on the lower tier or in the middle. I often speak to people from all different kinds of different communities, and to people from historically marginalized or excluded groups. So the barriers and the obstacles for anyone to speak up in the industry are there for everyone, I think, or most people. But the barriers and obstacles for some folks are more numerous.
I completely concur with what you’re saying. I agree with you, but I’m just saying, I’m a comedian on a set. I’m saying things that I deem—I can’t be, for other people, the arbiter—that I deem as silly and fun and keeps my energy up. By the way, I’m agreeing with you on the hugging. My new policy when I go on a set, ain’t nobody being hugged. I don’t want to make anyone feel uncomfortable. … I do think that a lot of times people on the top are either oblivious, which might be me, or they don’t do anything about it. And my attitude is, fuck them, because that’s not right. I’m always thinking about the little guy, you know. But I’m not thinking about the little guy when I’m doing something silly on set, because it’s my process and I’m not going after anyone. And it’s absurdism. Now, I just want to make one thing clear—if something I was doing was absurd, but yet really hurtful to somebody, I want to know why. I’m not firing them. I’m not doing any of that….
But they don’t know that.
I know they don’t. I empathize. But I don’t know what to say about what can be done. Because the system right now, the way I see it, is broken in both directions.
I think accountability is often ideal. Sometimes people don’t feel like they can get accountability going to a person with even some power.
I’m not disagreeing with this. I’m just disagreeing with the way it affects comedians. I’m a comedian and I’m only about creating joy in other people. If I make somebody else sad, I want to know about it. And that might be [putting the onus on them], but that’s the way it is. I’m at a comedy show and I’m doing my comedy stuff. And by the way, a studio has every right to warn me and fire me, if they so choose to do so. They’re my bosses, and if they say “You can’t do that anymore,” I have to decide, is it worth me staying?
Do you think Sony is going to fire you?
No, I do not. But, you know, we’ll see what happens.
How much time is left on shooting the season?
I think seven episodes left, eight episodes? So not that much time. And I don’t know, my gut feeling is we won’t be back next year.
You don’t think it’s going to get another season?
I actually have no idea. Usually they would give us an idea, “Yeah, we’re definitely bringing you back.” And the fact that we’re the first show of the night, and we’re very popular and we set the tone for everybody else. But we’re in a world where ABC doesn’t own the show. Sony does, they own the other shows of that night. So it’s about money and the bottom line. That’s all.
This is just a minor question, but I’ve heard that you work one day a week, is that right?
Sometimes. There are certain episodes where I have to work all week. But see, here’s the thing—I didn’t want to come back. I’d had my fill of it. And also I was very disgusted by the whole HR thing of the past few years. But I love the crew. I love everybody I work with. And if I say “No,” I’m feeling like there’s no show. So I said, “We can do these episodes, I can do four days. And then other times, please shoot me out in one day,” and they agreed to it.
So you had actually wanted to maybe not come back for season nine, but there was—
Just because I was bored. No other reason. Well, bored, and I was frustrated with the parameters that were being put on me by Sony, which they have every right to [enact]. And I have every right when I’m not under contract to decide not to come back. That’s all it was. But I love the people I work with and I didn’t want the work to end for them. So I did my part in keeping the show going, even though I would have been happy not doing the show.
We’re talking a lot about the idea of change. What change would you like to see in the industry to make it an equitable and a good experience for everyone?
When you own a studio, when you own someplace, really do your due diligence about A) who you hire and B) after they’re hired, go everywhere you can to find out about their behavior and what they do. To me, the only way is to hire good people. Thoughtful people. But also get rid of people that are power hungry and jerkish and don’t give a shit about the little guy. I’m just telling you flat out—that ain’t me, but maybe it’s perceived to be, I don’t know. When I see some of these executives move up, I’m like, “You gotta be kidding me. This person is completely out of touch and not a good person, not thoughtful, out for themselves.” I aspire to be—I’m not always successful—to be pretty humble and to open up about growing and evolving. And so no matter what comes of this, I will be a better man at the end of it.
OK. It’s always interesting to see millionaires with microphones in their hands, talking about how they can’t say anything. I’m like, “You have a microphone and everyone’s listening. So how are you not being able to say something?”
No, no, I am able to say something.
No, not you. But I see that a lot. People saying, “I’ve been silenced!” and I’m like, “You’re saying that at a press conference.”
When people do that, they’re so mistaken. I know exactly what you’re talking about. And it’s just plainly sad that they don’t see it. I have a platform. I will continue to have a platform. So I’m not feeling like I’m silenced, and I’m also wanting to cooperate with the way Sony wants things done, because they’re the boss. I get that. And I’m sorry, I truly am sorry, to have hurt anyone’s feelings, or made anyone feel greatly uncomfortable. That’s for sure.
I see a lot of people complaining about what I would call consequence culture, and then not doing any work.
Oh, by the way, I certainly want to make changes. I don’t know what they’ll be. But I know that I certainly can make adjustments. Because I’m pretty much, to be frank, a loose cannon on set—not a loose-cannon saying mean-spirited things. But anything that crosses my mind in my ADD way, I just say, if I think it’s funny. And I may have to figure out a new way to do that—[because I’m] not entitled to that. See, I’m open to it all. I’m humble. I’m not going to be Baron Von Defending Myself. Except with the physical altercation, which has never happened and never will. I also am a big believer that when there’s a comedian and you don’t like what they’re talking about, don’t watch them. Don’t appreciate them. You know, shut them out of your life. I understand that. Anyone who, in my comedic ways, doesn’t find me funny, whether it’s on The Goldbergs, Curb, stand up, I’m all for it. Please just push me out of your life. I’m all good.
I appreciate that. And I appreciate you contacting me, because I have been running into a brick wall with various parties in this process.
No, I get it. I get it. That’s kind of their job. But that’s why I reached out to you. And I’m going to let them know that I spoke to you, and I’m happy with what we talked about. And I’m happy with your perspective on the story, because outside of the physical altercation, there’s nothing that you’re talking about that isn’t true. I didn’t—about the person being naked—there’s no way. Outside of that, anything that says that my saying something is disrespectful to women or disrespectful to an individual—I’m hearing that. I disagree, but I can’t speak somebody else’s truth. That’s their truth, and I respect that.
I’ve been working on this for a while. And I think, as you noticed, the story hasn’t come out, yet because I try to be diligent.
I have respect for you. I’ve done my due diligence before I talked to you. And also I’m not a puppet that my management team, or any corporation, can just say, “Hey, don’t say anything.” No, this woman’s writing something, I want my point of view to be heard, and there you go. And if anything I said during our interview is offensive, I apologize. I don’t mean to be. But I also wanted to be straight with you from my perspective.
Well, here’s the thing—that is helpful.
Most definitely. Because you can write a better piece…. I just want you to get the straight dope from me. And that’s what I hopefully gave you. And hopefully, you’re not offended by me or, you know, think ill of me. I’m not trying to present myself gently. I find it fascinating that anybody would be interested in this. But maybe they are, maybe I’m underestimating myself.
Whether or not you perceive it, people consider you to be someone with power.
Yeah. I get that. I get that in certain positions in my career, I am the one with the power. I get that, and I don’t take that lightly. And when I’m on the set, I try showing everyone—I say I try. Maybe I’m not as good as I think, but I try [showing] everyone kindness and respect. I also feel free to joke around with them, and clearly some of my jokes are missing, and I have hurt people. And that makes me sad.
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